Damn, dude. Sounds like a bruising learning experience. Thank you for sharing. I can relate to the lurking and desperate self-promotion aspects. In a sense, I started a Substack for cynical reasons -- to drum up an audience, via drips and drops of blog-level content, for a planned story collection (hopefully published by a decent indie press, but we’ll see). There’s something gross about promoting oneself, but you’re right: as writers, we are fighting gravity. Maybe someday I’ll grow wings. : P
I just bought your book. I bought it because of this Substack, which I find interesting and insightful.
As I read this post, I thought about how I, a very avid reader, find books to read. The answer for me has always been: in bookstores and libraries. I haven't found them by reading book magazines or articles, because the writers of those are biased in ways which you've already documented. Instead, I've always gone to bookstores and libraries, and looked at books manually until I find ones I want to read. This probably sounds very inefficient, but I've been doing it for decades, and the instincts I have developed serve me well.
Do you ever consider how you might reach readers like me? I am a professional in my mid-30s, and a rightist living in a Midwestern suburb. I don't dig any deeper into the Internet than I have to; I feel like it's probably bad for my life. I read books because I always have, and more than that, it's an offline activity, something I always want more of. I am personally faced with a difficult conundrum. Mainstream publishers are now completely ideologically captured, and I know therefore that to read new fiction that I enjoy, I'm going to have to wade in to the alternative scene. But the alternative scene has almost no penetration into bookstores and libraries, which are captured by the mainstream. Somehow we have to meet each other halfway, but currently, I don't know how to find you, and you don't know how to find me.
>"currently, I don't know how to find you, and you don't know how to find me."
Couldn't have phrased it better myself. Discovery is the key problem for alt-lit writers, and historically, we've relied on Twitter for that.
Frankly, I don't have an answer better than Substack. There is also a growing literary commentariat in the alternative space (e.g. Took'ys Mag's Sidebar Literary Podcast, New Write podcast, etc.).
I *wish* I could get bookstore placement, but I'd need a real publisher for that (don't have one, sadly).
Consider submitting your books to the BBBS and the Alchemy for Art Indie Library. (I plugged/linked on a reply to A. Smith's comment.) There's not much literary fiction on either list yet, so you might corner that market.
Mr. Smith, I've spent about 14 years trying to reach readers like you. Glad you said something, because sometimes it's tempting to assume you don't exist.
I've got a lead for both readers who can't find anything tolerable on mainstream platforms, and for authors who are trying to reach similar readers. Here's a link to one of my recent blog posts:
I know this doesn't fit your preference for avoiding online activity, but it's a necessary evil sometimes.
The Big Based Book Sale (linked in the blog post) now has it's own Substack, and Hans runs it quarterly. Also, if you look at my blog sidebar under "A+ Good Stuff to Read" you'll see the "Alchemy for Art Indie Library." It's new and small, but hopefully will grow to become a large aggregation of indie titles.
Finally, my blog itself (which I've conveniently linked for you) reviews a lot of indie fiction. Some of it is great stuff--and might be unknown to you right now.
OK, that wasn't truly final, but this is: I've written some books, too, which are available at the aforementioned resources as well as multiple online bookstores.
The BBBS does appear to be the current center of a nascent movement. However, the significant barrier to using it, for me, has been the lack of any way to filter the titles, in terms of quality. That is to say: something appearing in the BBBS is a great indicator that it isn't woke, which is very important; but it is not an indicator that it is good, which is just as important. So, I appreciate that much more your 3-pronged contribution, of writing, reviewing, and platforming. The reviewing may be the most critical piece.
I wonder if I could start reviewing indie books? It never occurred to me until this moment. I wonder what it takes.
haha, I think it’s probably one of the hardest things in the world, to be honest - literary fiction is much harder to sell as a self-published work than most genre fare, since readers are more open to the latter (on average).
I applaud you for fighting the good fight and could feel the pain throughout. I think your attitude is great but also maybe slightly telegraphed? The Internet is the problem for writers and readers. If you had a strong local community, you can make 1:1 connections with people in person. That’s free advertising. You’d probably sell just as many books that way and they might actually be read. It’s not just lit tho. The streaming paradox exists everywhere—the app makes you believe you have more viewing choices than ever when the reality is the Internet is reductive. It’s given us less choice. And so your advertising campaign isn’t even really trying to sell a book, it’s trying to remake the end game of an entire apparatus that has never proven it can work for humanity’s benefit. I try to stay positive but it’s difficult when I realize the writing doesn’t matter. It’s not part of the equation. It’s just a metaphor highlighting our broken and disconnected world, and the metaphor makes sense and reflects what we see. Don’t dare to dream, IMO. Everything is working exactly as designed.
I hear you. I actually agree. I just write and stick it in a drawer. I’m not thrilled about it but it also doesn’t leave me gutted the way publishing did. Good luck with your future endeavors.
My take: If it weren't for substack, I wouldn't be engaging with other authors at all.
Before that was numerous cases of various authors acting like sneering elitists when they sold even less than I did and often had nothing to sell. And then lit basically did the same thing, except it is also one of the boards that doesn't have post ids so I can't tell if it was one samefag spamming NPC dialogue about "pseuds" many times or different users engaging in a soy brigade. Regardless, it was entirely useless in both cases because even in the best case scenario they spent all their time writing and had none for reading.
Trying it on a better target revealed somewhat enlightening results - men are so depressed by soyciety that they will barely even look at things that interest them and are made for them, and will also barely read anything no matter what it is.
This made me smile. Plenty of good advice, delivered in amusing fashion.
I self-published a fantasy novel. I've had a hell of a time just _giving_ it away for free. I'm not selling it anywhere. There are no ads on the website.
I loathe engaging in self-promotion -- which is odd, because it doesn't bother me when others do it, so long as it's not overbearing. But I gave it a try. I created an account on Reddit to tell a few fantasy-oriented subs about it, but that account got banned before I made a single post (?). I tried other message boards on the Internet, but I'd get jeered and banned there too.
I always read the rules. They always said "no spam", but it seemed okay to post non-commercial art (I'd see people link to their Instagram photo galleries and Deviant Art pages). The moment I tried, I got 86ed. Then I figured it out -- it was because I was an outsider. I had obviously signed up just to tell people about my novel. I was willing to stick around and talk about it, if anyone wanted to, but they'd just bounce me without ceremony. ^_^
(I considered 4Chan, but that's a nest of vipers. I'd wonder what kind of haxx attacks I was bringing upon myself. And I'm an outsider there too; I was already an old man on the Internet when that site came out).
I considered paying professionals to market it for me, but they all begin with the assumption that your book is on Amazon, Kindle, and all the other usual suspects. I don't have any of that. I just put it on a website in HTML and PDF form. I asked how to promote such a thing on a Reddit sub dedicated to self-publishing, and got crickets.
Not yet, still in editing hell. I more meant our fledgling YouTube where we plan to review incel and other indie fic: https://m.youtube.com/@tookysmag/videos
I spent a very long time on revisions, so I can definitely relate to that perfectionist streak. Added an embedded video to the Tooky's podcast episode on Mixtape Hyperborea.
Damn, dude. Sounds like a bruising learning experience. Thank you for sharing. I can relate to the lurking and desperate self-promotion aspects. In a sense, I started a Substack for cynical reasons -- to drum up an audience, via drips and drops of blog-level content, for a planned story collection (hopefully published by a decent indie press, but we’ll see). There’s something gross about promoting oneself, but you’re right: as writers, we are fighting gravity. Maybe someday I’ll grow wings. : P
Inshallah, brother.
I admire both your hustle on /lit/ and your retrospective honesty in this post. Keep at it.
Thank you Salty K. Pickles!
Ego is the enemy, as they say, haha
I just bought your book. I bought it because of this Substack, which I find interesting and insightful.
As I read this post, I thought about how I, a very avid reader, find books to read. The answer for me has always been: in bookstores and libraries. I haven't found them by reading book magazines or articles, because the writers of those are biased in ways which you've already documented. Instead, I've always gone to bookstores and libraries, and looked at books manually until I find ones I want to read. This probably sounds very inefficient, but I've been doing it for decades, and the instincts I have developed serve me well.
Do you ever consider how you might reach readers like me? I am a professional in my mid-30s, and a rightist living in a Midwestern suburb. I don't dig any deeper into the Internet than I have to; I feel like it's probably bad for my life. I read books because I always have, and more than that, it's an offline activity, something I always want more of. I am personally faced with a difficult conundrum. Mainstream publishers are now completely ideologically captured, and I know therefore that to read new fiction that I enjoy, I'm going to have to wade in to the alternative scene. But the alternative scene has almost no penetration into bookstores and libraries, which are captured by the mainstream. Somehow we have to meet each other halfway, but currently, I don't know how to find you, and you don't know how to find me.
>"currently, I don't know how to find you, and you don't know how to find me."
Couldn't have phrased it better myself. Discovery is the key problem for alt-lit writers, and historically, we've relied on Twitter for that.
Frankly, I don't have an answer better than Substack. There is also a growing literary commentariat in the alternative space (e.g. Took'ys Mag's Sidebar Literary Podcast, New Write podcast, etc.).
I *wish* I could get bookstore placement, but I'd need a real publisher for that (don't have one, sadly).
Consider submitting your books to the BBBS and the Alchemy for Art Indie Library. (I plugged/linked on a reply to A. Smith's comment.) There's not much literary fiction on either list yet, so you might corner that market.
Mr. Smith, I've spent about 14 years trying to reach readers like you. Glad you said something, because sometimes it's tempting to assume you don't exist.
I've got a lead for both readers who can't find anything tolerable on mainstream platforms, and for authors who are trying to reach similar readers. Here's a link to one of my recent blog posts:
https://www.virtualpulp.net/2024/04/08/more-new-reads-for-the-library/
I know this doesn't fit your preference for avoiding online activity, but it's a necessary evil sometimes.
The Big Based Book Sale (linked in the blog post) now has it's own Substack, and Hans runs it quarterly. Also, if you look at my blog sidebar under "A+ Good Stuff to Read" you'll see the "Alchemy for Art Indie Library." It's new and small, but hopefully will grow to become a large aggregation of indie titles.
Finally, my blog itself (which I've conveniently linked for you) reviews a lot of indie fiction. Some of it is great stuff--and might be unknown to you right now.
OK, that wasn't truly final, but this is: I've written some books, too, which are available at the aforementioned resources as well as multiple online bookstores.
Mr. Brown - thank you for sharing this with me.
The BBBS does appear to be the current center of a nascent movement. However, the significant barrier to using it, for me, has been the lack of any way to filter the titles, in terms of quality. That is to say: something appearing in the BBBS is a great indicator that it isn't woke, which is very important; but it is not an indicator that it is good, which is just as important. So, I appreciate that much more your 3-pronged contribution, of writing, reviewing, and platforming. The reviewing may be the most critical piece.
I wonder if I could start reviewing indie books? It never occurred to me until this moment. I wonder what it takes.
"Either your book is selling or it is not." I'm feeling personally attacked.
Good on you for your honesty in this piece, there's a lot to learn here.
haha, I think it’s probably one of the hardest things in the world, to be honest - literary fiction is much harder to sell as a self-published work than most genre fare, since readers are more open to the latter (on average).
I applaud you for fighting the good fight and could feel the pain throughout. I think your attitude is great but also maybe slightly telegraphed? The Internet is the problem for writers and readers. If you had a strong local community, you can make 1:1 connections with people in person. That’s free advertising. You’d probably sell just as many books that way and they might actually be read. It’s not just lit tho. The streaming paradox exists everywhere—the app makes you believe you have more viewing choices than ever when the reality is the Internet is reductive. It’s given us less choice. And so your advertising campaign isn’t even really trying to sell a book, it’s trying to remake the end game of an entire apparatus that has never proven it can work for humanity’s benefit. I try to stay positive but it’s difficult when I realize the writing doesn’t matter. It’s not part of the equation. It’s just a metaphor highlighting our broken and disconnected world, and the metaphor makes sense and reflects what we see. Don’t dare to dream, IMO. Everything is working exactly as designed.
I think here we just have to admit that the art alone is sufficient. A return to purism, I think.
I hear you. I actually agree. I just write and stick it in a drawer. I’m not thrilled about it but it also doesn’t leave me gutted the way publishing did. Good luck with your future endeavors.
My take: If it weren't for substack, I wouldn't be engaging with other authors at all.
Before that was numerous cases of various authors acting like sneering elitists when they sold even less than I did and often had nothing to sell. And then lit basically did the same thing, except it is also one of the boards that doesn't have post ids so I can't tell if it was one samefag spamming NPC dialogue about "pseuds" many times or different users engaging in a soy brigade. Regardless, it was entirely useless in both cases because even in the best case scenario they spent all their time writing and had none for reading.
Trying it on a better target revealed somewhat enlightening results - men are so depressed by soyciety that they will barely even look at things that interest them and are made for them, and will also barely read anything no matter what it is.
BTW, how did you embed the video without the code being visible? From one rake-stepper to another.
Just posted the youtube link directly and it auto displays IIRC
As a reader of /lit/, gtfo. 😂
This is extremely interesting; thank you for sharing.
I'm here to entertain!
This made me smile. Plenty of good advice, delivered in amusing fashion.
I self-published a fantasy novel. I've had a hell of a time just _giving_ it away for free. I'm not selling it anywhere. There are no ads on the website.
I loathe engaging in self-promotion -- which is odd, because it doesn't bother me when others do it, so long as it's not overbearing. But I gave it a try. I created an account on Reddit to tell a few fantasy-oriented subs about it, but that account got banned before I made a single post (?). I tried other message boards on the Internet, but I'd get jeered and banned there too.
I always read the rules. They always said "no spam", but it seemed okay to post non-commercial art (I'd see people link to their Instagram photo galleries and Deviant Art pages). The moment I tried, I got 86ed. Then I figured it out -- it was because I was an outsider. I had obviously signed up just to tell people about my novel. I was willing to stick around and talk about it, if anyone wanted to, but they'd just bounce me without ceremony. ^_^
(I considered 4Chan, but that's a nest of vipers. I'd wonder what kind of haxx attacks I was bringing upon myself. And I'm an outsider there too; I was already an old man on the Internet when that site came out).
I considered paying professionals to market it for me, but they all begin with the assumption that your book is on Amazon, Kindle, and all the other usual suspects. I don't have any of that. I just put it on a website in HTML and PDF form. I asked how to promote such a thing on a Reddit sub dedicated to self-publishing, and got crickets.
Anyway, like your stack.
I like how u write with abandon
lol.
(LOL).
((LMAO))
Have you considered posting on other imageboards, or on incel forums like incels.co?
I'm not sure what other image boards you're referring to?
I have considered posting on incels.co but I'm cautious about how my work might be received in that context, so I have not done so as of yet.
All the other chans other than 4chan! There are a ton.
You can find some here: https://allchans.org/2022/06/26/top-40-most-popular-image-boards/
or by asking around.
Lainchan is pretty cool. Sposedly 420chan is coming back soon
Thank you - I will add this to my to-do list!
haha, wait - you put out a book? Link?
Not yet, still in editing hell. I more meant our fledgling YouTube where we plan to review incel and other indie fic: https://m.youtube.com/@tookysmag/videos
I spent a very long time on revisions, so I can definitely relate to that perfectionist streak. Added an embedded video to the Tooky's podcast episode on Mixtape Hyperborea.