Speaking only for myself in good faith here: there's no such thing as making it, not in this line of work, anyway. You're not asking for advice, so I don't want this to sound as if I've figured everything out, but I can give you my perspective. I don't think about sales or reach, not even for a second. I get a check once or twice a year from my publishers; I glance at the dollar amount and then deposit it, and that's it. Personally shilling your own work is also something that is not all that effective, and probably more draining and frustrating than just doing little to nothing. If other people don't feel compelled to talk about your work and pass it around then you making more noise about it won't do much, if anything it will just irritate people. This world and this life aren't fair; you could be the most talented writer with the most to say and you might not make much of an impact within your own lifetime; or you could win some notoriety and then fall back into obscurity; people could say you're a genius for a year or two and then move on, move with the current to something else. Point being, you have very little control over how you're received and how much money you're going to make in this field; every moment you spend thinking about promoting, selling, networking, is a moment you're not spending on the work, and the work itself, for me, even though I'm not strictly speaking religious, is best undertaken as an offering to God, as a testament to the powers of the human imagination but also as a subordination of your spirit to the higher power above. Even if you're an irremediable atheist then you consecrate the work to the void that will swallow us all soon enough. If you really are driven by money, attention, accolades, there are more prudent ways of winning those things than writing literary fiction.
To the extent that I think about the public, or what is hot, I think about what I'd like to read that I'm not seeing anywhere else, and then I write that. Every now and then I'll do a podcast if I think the host and I would get along well enough.
You have skill and vision, I think you should forget about things like sales and numbers and even the bulk of para literary considerations like this: but that's also speaking to my taste and you might find this sort of thing more interesting in a genuine way.
At some point how a work is perceived is out of the author's hands, but if the author isn't willing to attempt to market it at all and no one reads it, then what's the difference between it and an unpublished journal? Ultimately if one is trying to further a message -- and ARX's seems to revolve around understanding and sympathizing with the plight of the forgotten gamma male in an age of ubiquitous nihilism, at least with his novel here -- then I think he has a duty to try to learn marketing (I don't mean mass-market marketing; it can be to those whose opinion one cares about, or in lots of other ways), to try to get others to read his work, and then what happens after that is really up to God. I think he's doing a great job with his attempts...
None of us are ever going to get rich doing this unless we ditch our literary pretensions and start writing mass-market garbage.
That said, I agree with your post. It’s not clout that’s the marker of success, but reaching and influencing people who have audiences and whose opinions and tastes matter. That’s making it, as far as I’m concerned.
I have definitely experienced similar feelings about sales and recognition. Early on I wanted to shill my books all the time. As the years have passed, I find myself caring less and less about recognition from tastemakers. The most satisfying interactions I have had from readers are the cases when people take the time to find my Email on the info page and reach out directly. I've only become more and more content with the idea of writing for myself first and foremost and not worrying about reach or sales. I think part of it is getting older and realizing that, if you truly believe in your own talents, time within the context of your own life loses significance to that of your work. The work has its own lifespan. You have to believe that its best days may be beyond yours or at least beyond your immediate hopes. And it's not only time that moves beyond you. It's reach too. The most common theme I hear about how people found my work is recommendations by their friends and family and not my futile social media shilling.
Your (second) last paragraph says it all: you're trying something new that has no established support network or distribution channels. As such, the standards also have to be adjusted accordingly. The upside is that the payoff (probably not literally, though lol) is potentially greater because helping to start something is rare and special.
Tony Tulathimutte is also a relatively mainstream male writer under 50 who's not afraid to write about "disreputable males." He's our best established hope in exploring more about Elliot Rodger's loathing of (full) Asian men and why it made perfect logical sense in American culture. Unless you or I beat him to it!
I share you excitement - I think there's something truly generative (and fun) about this new literary moment.
Completely agree re: Tony T, of course - the high-water mark of Asian-American male novelists for this generation. Very much looking forward to his next collection when it comes out in September.
I tend to say that in my milieu (rock music) there's no longer any “it” to “make”. Leaving aside the well-known struggles of dealing with the Streaming Age Gorgons and their hyperfussy algorithmic priorities, even an audience of “serious people in serious places” is a remote prospect. For most writers here, for example, they would infinitely rather pull something from the farther past to champion, to make themselves look cooler, than engage with anything today which doesn't have a preformed consensus on its desirability. The gatekeepers no longer value any “brand” higher than their own, if that makes sense; and that dictates their choices now, almost entirely.
I'd imagine it's highly similar in the literary world now, too.
FYI- I was able to read Incel for free on my Kindle because Amazon says it is included with my Prime Membership. Did you know this? Do you get any money from my reading your book for free this way? Amazon gives me the option of buying it for $5 as an ebook. I'd be happy to do that, or else to buy it (as an ebook) some other way.
Thanks for reaching out - I do in fact get paid (by the page) when a Kindle Unlimited subscriber reads the e-book on Amazon, but it's less than a Kindle purchase.
The main thing I'd ask, if you have a moment, would be a star rating or review on Amazon and/or Goodreads - that's the thing that helps the most!
Congratulations on the reviews! For me, "being taken seriously by serious people in serious places" has so far been the most important type of satisfaction from my writing. Finding those places/communities is challenging sometimes, but it is incredibly rewarding when you do find them.
I really enjoyed this post, thanks for sharing it, ARX. The first thing it brings to mind is this recent Tweet by Mike Benz, who gave up his apparently successful career in law and what he's alluded to is a lot of other things (relationships?) in order to pursue his passion, which is an insanely detailed but clear and accurate understanding of the inner workers of the deep state: https://twitter.com/MikeBenzCyber/status/1787005954191454673 . And the underlying video clip he links is on point too.
In the same manner you clearly have a lot of writing talent, and I do hope that you continue to pursue it. There's a lot of ways to measure success, but the feeling of doing what you've been put on earth to do is a priceless one. And I think forging your own path through independent publishing and focusing on a niche the mainstream won't cover is a good one.
Re: Elliot Rodger, your take is strong. To see the killing of his Asian roommates as a symbolic way for him to kill off the self-hated Asian half of himself is a powerful perspective. Also, I've read a lot of manifestos over the years, and Rodger's was fairly well written and was unintentionally really funny in a lot of places -- where he takes frenetic trips across the state board to buy lottery tickets, when he hears his sister having sex in the room next door, when he goes to parties and glares at various couples and falls or is pushed down some stairs. It's the mix of horror, unintentional comedy and the strong writing that makes it leave quite the impression...
Lastly: have you considered reaching out to the authors who you have drawn inspiration from? I could definitely see someone like Bret Easton Ellis liking and appreciating what you've accomplished here.
Speaking only for myself in good faith here: there's no such thing as making it, not in this line of work, anyway. You're not asking for advice, so I don't want this to sound as if I've figured everything out, but I can give you my perspective. I don't think about sales or reach, not even for a second. I get a check once or twice a year from my publishers; I glance at the dollar amount and then deposit it, and that's it. Personally shilling your own work is also something that is not all that effective, and probably more draining and frustrating than just doing little to nothing. If other people don't feel compelled to talk about your work and pass it around then you making more noise about it won't do much, if anything it will just irritate people. This world and this life aren't fair; you could be the most talented writer with the most to say and you might not make much of an impact within your own lifetime; or you could win some notoriety and then fall back into obscurity; people could say you're a genius for a year or two and then move on, move with the current to something else. Point being, you have very little control over how you're received and how much money you're going to make in this field; every moment you spend thinking about promoting, selling, networking, is a moment you're not spending on the work, and the work itself, for me, even though I'm not strictly speaking religious, is best undertaken as an offering to God, as a testament to the powers of the human imagination but also as a subordination of your spirit to the higher power above. Even if you're an irremediable atheist then you consecrate the work to the void that will swallow us all soon enough. If you really are driven by money, attention, accolades, there are more prudent ways of winning those things than writing literary fiction.
To the extent that I think about the public, or what is hot, I think about what I'd like to read that I'm not seeing anywhere else, and then I write that. Every now and then I'll do a podcast if I think the host and I would get along well enough.
You have skill and vision, I think you should forget about things like sales and numbers and even the bulk of para literary considerations like this: but that's also speaking to my taste and you might find this sort of thing more interesting in a genuine way.
Great points well articulated and something for me to think about!
Appreciate the comment.
At some point how a work is perceived is out of the author's hands, but if the author isn't willing to attempt to market it at all and no one reads it, then what's the difference between it and an unpublished journal? Ultimately if one is trying to further a message -- and ARX's seems to revolve around understanding and sympathizing with the plight of the forgotten gamma male in an age of ubiquitous nihilism, at least with his novel here -- then I think he has a duty to try to learn marketing (I don't mean mass-market marketing; it can be to those whose opinion one cares about, or in lots of other ways), to try to get others to read his work, and then what happens after that is really up to God. I think he's doing a great job with his attempts...
None of us are ever going to get rich doing this unless we ditch our literary pretensions and start writing mass-market garbage.
That said, I agree with your post. It’s not clout that’s the marker of success, but reaching and influencing people who have audiences and whose opinions and tastes matter. That’s making it, as far as I’m concerned.
Go forth and write.
I have definitely experienced similar feelings about sales and recognition. Early on I wanted to shill my books all the time. As the years have passed, I find myself caring less and less about recognition from tastemakers. The most satisfying interactions I have had from readers are the cases when people take the time to find my Email on the info page and reach out directly. I've only become more and more content with the idea of writing for myself first and foremost and not worrying about reach or sales. I think part of it is getting older and realizing that, if you truly believe in your own talents, time within the context of your own life loses significance to that of your work. The work has its own lifespan. You have to believe that its best days may be beyond yours or at least beyond your immediate hopes. And it's not only time that moves beyond you. It's reach too. The most common theme I hear about how people found my work is recommendations by their friends and family and not my futile social media shilling.
Your (second) last paragraph says it all: you're trying something new that has no established support network or distribution channels. As such, the standards also have to be adjusted accordingly. The upside is that the payoff (probably not literally, though lol) is potentially greater because helping to start something is rare and special.
Tony Tulathimutte is also a relatively mainstream male writer under 50 who's not afraid to write about "disreputable males." He's our best established hope in exploring more about Elliot Rodger's loathing of (full) Asian men and why it made perfect logical sense in American culture. Unless you or I beat him to it!
I share you excitement - I think there's something truly generative (and fun) about this new literary moment.
Completely agree re: Tony T, of course - the high-water mark of Asian-American male novelists for this generation. Very much looking forward to his next collection when it comes out in September.
I tend to say that in my milieu (rock music) there's no longer any “it” to “make”. Leaving aside the well-known struggles of dealing with the Streaming Age Gorgons and their hyperfussy algorithmic priorities, even an audience of “serious people in serious places” is a remote prospect. For most writers here, for example, they would infinitely rather pull something from the farther past to champion, to make themselves look cooler, than engage with anything today which doesn't have a preformed consensus on its desirability. The gatekeepers no longer value any “brand” higher than their own, if that makes sense; and that dictates their choices now, almost entirely.
I'd imagine it's highly similar in the literary world now, too.
Great thoughts as always and Im sharing our YouTube coverage of Incel for anyone interested:
https://youtu.be/5BU6pLfmR50?si=2_B9Rwjrl97zXAB8
FYI- I was able to read Incel for free on my Kindle because Amazon says it is included with my Prime Membership. Did you know this? Do you get any money from my reading your book for free this way? Amazon gives me the option of buying it for $5 as an ebook. I'd be happy to do that, or else to buy it (as an ebook) some other way.
Ross Barkan's review turned me onto your work.
Thanks for reaching out - I do in fact get paid (by the page) when a Kindle Unlimited subscriber reads the e-book on Amazon, but it's less than a Kindle purchase.
The main thing I'd ask, if you have a moment, would be a star rating or review on Amazon and/or Goodreads - that's the thing that helps the most!
I heard Nietzsche sold like 100 copies. You're doing great, bro. Also, recognition from people you deem critical thinkers is dope.
Congratulations on the reviews! For me, "being taken seriously by serious people in serious places" has so far been the most important type of satisfaction from my writing. Finding those places/communities is challenging sometimes, but it is incredibly rewarding when you do find them.
"tote-bag-slop" 😂😭😂 congratulations on these thoughtful reviews and blessings for many more!
Thank you, comrade
I really enjoyed this post, thanks for sharing it, ARX. The first thing it brings to mind is this recent Tweet by Mike Benz, who gave up his apparently successful career in law and what he's alluded to is a lot of other things (relationships?) in order to pursue his passion, which is an insanely detailed but clear and accurate understanding of the inner workers of the deep state: https://twitter.com/MikeBenzCyber/status/1787005954191454673 . And the underlying video clip he links is on point too.
In the same manner you clearly have a lot of writing talent, and I do hope that you continue to pursue it. There's a lot of ways to measure success, but the feeling of doing what you've been put on earth to do is a priceless one. And I think forging your own path through independent publishing and focusing on a niche the mainstream won't cover is a good one.
Re: Elliot Rodger, your take is strong. To see the killing of his Asian roommates as a symbolic way for him to kill off the self-hated Asian half of himself is a powerful perspective. Also, I've read a lot of manifestos over the years, and Rodger's was fairly well written and was unintentionally really funny in a lot of places -- where he takes frenetic trips across the state board to buy lottery tickets, when he hears his sister having sex in the room next door, when he goes to parties and glares at various couples and falls or is pushed down some stairs. It's the mix of horror, unintentional comedy and the strong writing that makes it leave quite the impression...
Lastly: have you considered reaching out to the authors who you have drawn inspiration from? I could definitely see someone like Bret Easton Ellis liking and appreciating what you've accomplished here.